Middle east crisis.

[sandGroundZero]

…
There is a De facto State of Palestine (with Gaza as a 'no go' area for Jews).
The De Facto State of Palestine was at Civil War with Israel before October 7th.

…
It does not matter what you or I want for Israel and Palestine.
The fact is that Palestinian's in the De Facto State of Palestine want Independence.

Israel has her Independence having accepted partition in 1948 which Palestine refused.
Palestine was handed peace on a plate.As the the gripe was racism not land,Control not coexistence,hate not hope the bitter fight go's on.

I am not deluded just fearful that after October 7th attack rape kidnap
murder and torture the Israeli voters prepared to listen to a 'Two State Solution' will evaporate.

The "De Facto State" is Israel-Palestine. Broadly speaking, the Palestinians are disillusioned, having suffered Israel's machinations, especially since the Oslo process, but throughout the history of the conflict. "Palestine" was the territory prior to the Partition Plan of which the Arab population was offered 42% — a stitch up, in view of the partis pris hatched by Zionists since Herzl. Finally, I fear you are correct is supposing Israel's Jewish voters are increasingly voting for interminable conflict!

[Hamble]

The "De Facto State" is Israel-Palestine. Broadly speaking, the Palestinians are disillusioned, having suffered Israel's machinations, especially since the Oslo process, but throughout the history of the conflict. "Palestine" was the territory prior to the Partition Plan of which the Arab population was offered 42% — a stitch up, in view of the partis pris hatched by Zionists since Herzl. Finally, I fear you are correct is supposing Israel's Jewish voters are increasingly voting for interminable conflict!

1.
The Palestinians are currently a non-member observer state, a de facto recognition of statehood that was granted by the U.N. General Assembly in 2012. They are represented at the U.N. by the Palestinian Authority, which exercises limited self-rule in the West Bank.3 days ago.

Release the Israeli hostages,surrender arms.

[sandGroundZero]

1. There is a De facto State of Palestine (with Gaza as a 'no go' area for Jews).
   The De Facto State of Palestine was at Civil War with Israel before October 7th.

1. The Palestinians are currently a non-member observer state, a de facto recognition of statehood that was granted by the U.N. General Assembly in 2012. They are represented at the U.N. by the Palestinian Authority, which exercises limited self-rule in the West Bank.3 days ago.

Release the Israeli hostages,surrender arms.

The U.N. General Assembly perforce takes its cues from the [lagging] international consensus opinion which is greatly influenced by Israel via the United States and its allies. As happened with the League of Nations, the views of the Palestinian people have low priority. Many Israelis [and Israel's overseas espousers] seem to have become enured of permanent conflict. For these, it is always a matter of winning — or at least, surviving to fight another day.

[Hamble]

The U.N. General Assembly perforce takes its cues from the [lagging] international consensus opinion which is greatly influenced by Israel via the United States and its allies. As happened with the League of Nations, the views of the Palestinian people have low priority. Many Israelis [and Israel's overseas espousers] seem to have become enured of permanent conflict. For these, it is always a matter of winning — or at least, surviving to fight another day.

The UN has the responsibility of ensuring the Two State/Partition is enacted.

You cannot cherry pick UN rulings depending on whether they favour Palestine only.

I doubt Israel would care either way if the corrupt UN UNWRA and all its failures dissapear.

If Palestinian's do not want a Two State sollution what are their supporters marching for?

If Palestinian supporters are marching for a one State Palestine that is proof of intent to the destruction of Israel and her peoples.

Either way sGZ your opinion does not come out well does it?

[sandGroundZero]

The UN has the responsibility of ensuring the Two State/Partition is enacted.
You cannot cherry pick UN rulings depending on whether they favour Palestine only.
I doubt Israel would care either way if the corrupt UN UNWRA and all its failures dissapear.
…

You've provided a naive notion of the UN General Assembly's function in global diplomacy. Israel would of course wish away the General Assembly because it proclaims against Israel regularly.

…
If Palestinian's do not want a Two State sollution what are their supporters marching for?
If Palestinian supporters are marching for a one State Palestine that is proof of intent to the destruction of Israel and her peoples.
Either way sGZ your opinion does not come out well does it?

People are protesting at injustice meted out by Israel. A just solution requires that the Palestinians be given equal civil and political rights. The paradox is that it is Israel that sustains a single state. It has stubbornly, persistently pressured the Arab population to leave the Land of Israel. Thus far, the Palestinians have resisted in the face of great hardship.

Artists in Rafah create a mural for Palestinian Child’s Day on 5 April 2024. Photograph: Anadolu/Getty Images

[Hamble]

"By 1947, the British announced their desire to terminate the Palestine Mandate and placed the Question of Palestine before the United Nations, the successor to the League of Nations. The UN created UNSCOP (the UN Special Committee on Palestine) on May 15, 1947, with representatives from 11 countries. UNSCOP conducted hearings and surveyed the situation in Palestine, then issued a report on August 31 recommending the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states, with Jerusalem placed under international administration."

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/su...ndatory%20zone.

Israel would NEVER accept Sharia Law or allow it practised on her land.
That is an unreasonable request to accomodate.

By contrast 2 million Palestinian/Arab Israeli's live in Israel.

[Hamble]

Quote
sGZ
" You've provided a naive notion of the UN General Assembly's function in global diplomacy.
Israel would of course wish away the General Assembly because it proclaims against Israel regularly."


........................



Absolutely.
The UN's UNWRA is corrupt and implicated in the October 7th attack on Israel.

The UN has also caused antisemitsm in the UK and elsewhere by its imcompetant negotiations and announcements.


https://honestreporting.com/media-ig...vilian-deaths/

[sandGroundZero]

Hamble, you delude yourself.

Israeli governments' conception of the so-called two-state solution does not involve a genuinely independent Palestinian state; certainly not in terms that most people think of a state!

Every Israeli PM from 1967, onward has declined to seriously contemplate relinquishing the conquered territory. No PM since Menachem Begin formally declared the policy of limited Palestinian autonomy, could expect to get the backing of the Knesset for a genuine Palestinian state. For Israeli governments a Palestinian state is a non-starter and Jewish Israeli voters have solidly supported that stance!

All Israel's efforts have been dedicated to consolidating control of the West Bank and permitting the expansion of Jewish settlements. West Bank Palestinians will remain effectively stateless, though ultimately under the control of Israel.

This thread's posts recur with minor variations, (or no variations). Throughout the decades political Zionism has exhorted and cajoled colonial powers, including their creation, the League of Nations to achieve a State for the Jews. The preexistent Palestinian population expressed their rejection. Theodor Herzl didn't care; Arthur Balfour & Lloyd George didn't care. During the Mandate for Palestine a succession of Commissions concluded that the partition of Palestine between the Jewish in-comers and the preexistent Palestinian population was necessary and inescapable. Contemporary Palestinians contest the legitimacy of the long string of unjust impositions. Still, it is only really the Palestinians that have ever modified their demands. Having been exiled, the Palestinian diaspora and among those internally displaced in Israel-Palestine there are, if only the Israeli leadership deigned to seek them out, partners for a settlement acceptable to both sides. The invocation of "terrorists" and "sharia law" are excuses for pressing on with the goal of excluding the Arab population — altogether and forever!

[Styx]

Quote
sGZ
" You've provided a naive notion of the UN General Assembly's function in global diplomacy.
Israel would of course wish away the General Assembly because it proclaims against Israel regularly."


........................



Absolutely.
The UN's UNWRA is corrupt and implicated in the October 7th attack on Israel.

The UN has also caused antisemitsm in the UK and elsewhere by its imcompetant negotiations and announcements.


https://honestreporting.com/media-ig...vilian-deaths/

Spot-on Hamble.


UNRWA caught stealing, selling humanitarian aid - UN Watch

According to the report, Palestinians claimed that staff working for the UN agency “have their homes full of aid.” Additionally, a UNRWA warehouse chief sold 50 cartons of food for $5,000.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-800477

[sandGroundZero]

Absolutely. The UN's UNWRA is corrupt and implicated in the October 7th attack on Israel.

Few would dispute that an organization the size of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine — [UNRWA, NOT UNWRA, by the way] — with the complexity of functions it performs will have instances of mismanagement and corruption [even alleged complicity]. But to dismiss the whole organization, as you do, cannot be justified.

1. The UN has also caused antisemitsm in the UK and elsewhere by its imcompetant negotiations and announcements.
   
   
2. HonestReporting
   Media Ignore Quietly-Revised UN Figures of Hamas-Reported Civilian Deaths

A dubious assertion! Netanyahu's regime's brutal assault on non-combatants must take a large portion of responsibility for that! We have been here before. HonestReporting exists to disseminate talking points to advocates for Israel: Monitoring the Media "HonestReporting analyzes stories, articles, opinion pieces and images that appear in the media’s coverage of Israel, exposing and responding to inaccuracies or bias." — in fact, muddy the waters by introducing 'spin' favourable to the Zionist narrative and alleging bias and distortion wherever that narrative is queried.

[Hamble]

Few would dispute that an organization the size of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine — [UNRWA, NOT UNWRA, by the way] — with the complexity of functions it performs will have instances of mismanagement and corruption [even alleged complicity]. But to dismiss the whole organization, as you do, cannot be justified.

A dubious assertion! Netanyahu's regime's brutal assault on non-combatants must take a large portion of responsibility for that! We have been here before. HonestReporting exists to disseminate talking points to advocates for Israel: Monitoring the Media "HonestReporting analyzes stories, articles, opinion pieces and images that appear in the media’s coverage of Israel, exposing and responding to inaccuracies or bias." — in fact, muddy the waters by introducing 'spin' favourable to the Zionist narrative!

That's ok -you stick to making Hamas look favourable.
It is a harder task.

[sandGroundZero]

That's ok -you stick to making Hamas look favourable. It is a harder task. You are well aware, I am sure, that I denounce Hamas' violent and stupid tactics. I believe every poster on this forum censures Hamas. It is a stain on the cause of justice for the Palestinian people. Readers of this Q local forum should know that an extensive network of pro-Israel campaign organizations and individual 'influencers' have a long and noteworthy history. As nationalist ideologies do, Zionism has deployed propaganda, certainly as far back as Theodor Herzl, himself. Theodor Herzl

[Hamble]

You are well aware, I am sure, that I denounce Hamas' violent and stupid tactics. I believe every poster on this forum censures Hamas. It is a stain on the cause of justice for the Palestinian people. Readers of this Q local forum should know that an extensive network of pro-Israel campaign organizations and individual 'influencers' have a long and noteworthy history. As nationalist ideologies do, Zionism has deployed propaganda, certainly as far back as Theodor Herzl, himself. Theodor Herzl

Like all Islamists your conscience and cause allows you to speak with a forked tongue.

Inconsistencies in your posts prove it.

[sandGroundZero]

Like all Islamists your conscience and cause allows you to speak with a forked tongue. Inconsistencies in your posts prove it. "forked tongue" — Is that your idea of 'Parliamentary' language? Hamble, you sometimes descend into innuendo and slurs; it is disreputable of you. If you think you have discovered inconsistencies in my posts, then let us see them.

[local]

Is that the go-to trope now?

any criticism of Israel is seen as Islamist?

Am I now an "Islamist" ?

I couldn't think of a "religion" or at the least an associated movement that causes more problems in the world and attracts the most offensive distortions of any religion.

I despise so many of their actions and treatment of people, especially women.



Surely we all see problems with the actions of both sides even if some don't want to admit it?